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shalannaNatasha from DesperadaWriters (a mailing list that I'm on) gave me permission to post her thoughts on the revised opening of _Little Rituals_ here:
Exactly! She put it into words, whereas I have been so eager to please that I have done whatever critiquing agents and editors seemed to be asking. But I wasn't insane after all. I thought I was right to have some reality-grounding in the beginning.
Trouble is, since I'm an unproven quantity as far as editors are concerned, they don't trust me to have this ordinary day really have an underlying meaning. They don't read far enough and have enough trust in me. Those who read it who were pulled along by the narrative (Barb Blanks, Dennis, my aunt, et al) stayed with Daphne long enough to realize that she was on a downward spiral. Can't get an agent or editor to stick with her. Critique group members are also trained to find a flaw as soon as possible.
The editor who told me to have something impossible happen right away wanted a paranormal. I haven't read many paranormals (a lot of contemporary fantasy, but not paranormal romances and paranormals), but if that's what sells, I thought, I'd do it. Because I've been at this for twenty years, and these are the types of obstacles I always encounter: "Your prose flows and your characters are charming and your dialogue is realistic. BUT WE WON'T BUY IT because the plot isn't THIS or it doesn't have THAT, etc." So it's really MUCH TOUGHER than someone who just doesn't know how to spell and does a lot of awkward dialogue and cardboard characterization, but has a plot that "THEY" think will sell, clever or not. ((sigh))
Sorry to dump on y'all again. That rant has been in here ready to come out.
Natasha also said, "It reminds me a little of Charms for an Easy Life."
You know, someone told me years ago that I should read that book by Kaye Gibbons . . . she gave me a paperback, but I never got around to reading it. She said it was a Southern gothic, though. (grin) I think it's still around here.
In a literary novel, as you've probably noticed, sometimes the entire point is the character's reminiscing or pontificating. I'm thinking of _How I Paid for College_ and _Test Pattern_, that sort of book. Those two books are also funny, but wacky. Not all literary novels are like that, but some are. If the character is charming, sometimes that's the appeal.
A bit about direct address. A goodly number of books begin that way, although it may be mostly literary novels, mysteries, and some others. Then the text begins to focus in on what's going to happen. Films do it, too. It's not the same as backstory. Backstory: "When I was married to him, we lived in a little grass hut in Hawaii. He was a travel guide. He used to tell me I was fat, though I wore a size ten. I dieted and made myself throw up." Etc. What I have is direct address to the reader, making it like a LiveJournal in a way, and then the action begins. *grin*
It's more of a literary device. This is a literary novel, and I can't force it into a genre. I'm going to have to admit it.
It may be that I was wrong about this one being the most probable to sell first! I could market Camille and Miranda aggressively instead. They stay in genre and won't be tough to pigeonhole. (Urban fantasy and fantasy.)
At the beginning of the "help" threads in my LiveJournal, I was indirectly accused of being one of those prima donnas who thinks her precious words are set in stone and shouldn't be changed. I have finally corrected that belief, I think, but now I need to refocus and make sure I don't take things too far the other way.
I trust![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
coneycat (and certainly trust her more than I do the anonymous posters and the one-time readers), and she said she is intrigued by the added scene and it didn't ruin the story for her. I also trust sartorias (though I realize she doesn't have time to read through stuff--and I'm going to get to meet her at DFWCon!) and dennis_havens, who commented on the original version. I have to trust my instincts (the Tarot reading I got a couple of days ago mentioned this).
I've now gotten the go-ahead to send the partial to a chick lit editor. (A different editor at that same house, in fact.) So I think I'm going to send the revised version. It seems to me that it could still be a literary novel OR chick lit. We'll see. Everyone's tastes are unique.
What I have been doing is trying to make this into something it's not. The two editors and three agents who responded in detail by e-mail or telephone calls kept telling me that nothing connected the first few scenes, that there was no reason to read on because nothing paranormal or interesting happened, that it was a slice of life that made them laugh out loud, but didn't have a "what does the character want?" That I must put in more paranormal stuff. That I must have NOT her normal day, but plunge her into weirdness. This is, they seemed to say, what sells.
But you have to ground readers in reality first. That is a rule taught at VP (unless I am remembering wrong). So I think what I've sprinkled in will have to be enough. Any more would just make it ludicrous.
I think this is a literary novel. I didn't believe I could sell a literary novel, so I pursued selling it as "chick lit." But it's not really chick lit. It's an old-fashioned "book" book. (sigh) I don't think there's any way around it. Anything I do drastically in trying to make it something else turns it into a book that I didn't intend to write, not the book that I had in mind.
Daphne needs to start relying on herself rather than blaming everything on luck. Her beliefs in rituals and so forth are holding her back. Although she shouldn't abandon them completely--that's also implied. The theme is more concentrated around "can we really make our own luck?" It's kind of a literary theme, I guess.
What I need to do is start marketing it correctly and/or put it away for some other world. *grin*
The issue I see is that my disbelief isn't suspended. You've got an impossible event right up front, after the direct address. It makes me not believe.
[Fantasists] need to really ground the rest of the story in reality. Many of the great fantasies start out: It was a plain old boring, ordinary day. They then guide the reader through the plain, boring, ordinary day (which is actually a little interesting and enlightening). The reader knows that something is going to happen because nothing is ever as ordinary as it seems, so they’re hooked. Check out the beginning of the first (and many other) Harry Potter books, the Narnia books, or Stephen King, even.
Exactly! She put it into words, whereas I have been so eager to please that I have done whatever critiquing agents and editors seemed to be asking. But I wasn't insane after all. I thought I was right to have some reality-grounding in the beginning.
Trouble is, since I'm an unproven quantity as far as editors are concerned, they don't trust me to have this ordinary day really have an underlying meaning. They don't read far enough and have enough trust in me. Those who read it who were pulled along by the narrative (Barb Blanks, Dennis, my aunt, et al) stayed with Daphne long enough to realize that she was on a downward spiral. Can't get an agent or editor to stick with her. Critique group members are also trained to find a flaw as soon as possible.
The editor who told me to have something impossible happen right away wanted a paranormal. I haven't read many paranormals (a lot of contemporary fantasy, but not paranormal romances and paranormals), but if that's what sells, I thought, I'd do it. Because I've been at this for twenty years, and these are the types of obstacles I always encounter: "Your prose flows and your characters are charming and your dialogue is realistic. BUT WE WON'T BUY IT because the plot isn't THIS or it doesn't have THAT, etc." So it's really MUCH TOUGHER than someone who just doesn't know how to spell and does a lot of awkward dialogue and cardboard characterization, but has a plot that "THEY" think will sell, clever or not. ((sigh))
Sorry to dump on y'all again. That rant has been in here ready to come out.
Natasha also said, "It reminds me a little of Charms for an Easy Life."
You know, someone told me years ago that I should read that book by Kaye Gibbons . . . she gave me a paperback, but I never got around to reading it. She said it was a Southern gothic, though. (grin) I think it's still around here.
In a literary novel, as you've probably noticed, sometimes the entire point is the character's reminiscing or pontificating. I'm thinking of _How I Paid for College_ and _Test Pattern_, that sort of book. Those two books are also funny, but wacky. Not all literary novels are like that, but some are. If the character is charming, sometimes that's the appeal.
A bit about direct address. A goodly number of books begin that way, although it may be mostly literary novels, mysteries, and some others. Then the text begins to focus in on what's going to happen. Films do it, too. It's not the same as backstory. Backstory: "When I was married to him, we lived in a little grass hut in Hawaii. He was a travel guide. He used to tell me I was fat, though I wore a size ten. I dieted and made myself throw up." Etc. What I have is direct address to the reader, making it like a LiveJournal in a way, and then the action begins. *grin*
It's more of a literary device. This is a literary novel, and I can't force it into a genre. I'm going to have to admit it.
It may be that I was wrong about this one being the most probable to sell first! I could market Camille and Miranda aggressively instead. They stay in genre and won't be tough to pigeonhole. (Urban fantasy and fantasy.)
At the beginning of the "help" threads in my LiveJournal, I was indirectly accused of being one of those prima donnas who thinks her precious words are set in stone and shouldn't be changed. I have finally corrected that belief, I think, but now I need to refocus and make sure I don't take things too far the other way.
I trust
coneycat (and certainly trust her more than I do the anonymous posters and the one-time readers), and she said she is intrigued by the added scene and it didn't ruin the story for her. I also trust sartorias (though I realize she doesn't have time to read through stuff--and I'm going to get to meet her at DFWCon!) and dennis_havens, who commented on the original version. I have to trust my instincts (the Tarot reading I got a couple of days ago mentioned this).I've now gotten the go-ahead to send the partial to a chick lit editor. (A different editor at that same house, in fact.) So I think I'm going to send the revised version. It seems to me that it could still be a literary novel OR chick lit. We'll see. Everyone's tastes are unique.
What I have been doing is trying to make this into something it's not. The two editors and three agents who responded in detail by e-mail or telephone calls kept telling me that nothing connected the first few scenes, that there was no reason to read on because nothing paranormal or interesting happened, that it was a slice of life that made them laugh out loud, but didn't have a "what does the character want?" That I must put in more paranormal stuff. That I must have NOT her normal day, but plunge her into weirdness. This is, they seemed to say, what sells.
But you have to ground readers in reality first. That is a rule taught at VP (unless I am remembering wrong). So I think what I've sprinkled in will have to be enough. Any more would just make it ludicrous.
I think this is a literary novel. I didn't believe I could sell a literary novel, so I pursued selling it as "chick lit." But it's not really chick lit. It's an old-fashioned "book" book. (sigh) I don't think there's any way around it. Anything I do drastically in trying to make it something else turns it into a book that I didn't intend to write, not the book that I had in mind.
Daphne needs to start relying on herself rather than blaming everything on luck. Her beliefs in rituals and so forth are holding her back. Although she shouldn't abandon them completely--that's also implied. The theme is more concentrated around "can we really make our own luck?" It's kind of a literary theme, I guess.
What I need to do is start marketing it correctly and/or put it away for some other world. *grin*
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no subject
Date: 2006-01-16 05:29 pm (UTC)And I had the same reaction that I had before: though there is much to admire, the pacing was too slow--there were too many places that plodded. King et all keep thinks moving fast until weird hits.
For example, the first sentence read to me spifferino. But the second one seemed to me a dull sentence telling me something obvious. It robbed the first sentence of a jot of interest. But the next graph sparked again....and so forth.
And so on. I guess that's the kind of thing you'll probably only want to trim if someone buys the book and asks you to, as very slow pacing and much extra detail per scene seems to be what you write most naturally. Whether or not that is "right" or "wrong" finally is going to be yours and your editor's call--and then the readers'.
Daphne
Date: 2006-01-16 07:52 pm (UTC)You'll get it right. I have faith in you.
Dennis
no subject
Date: 2006-01-17 04:32 am (UTC)Or not. :)
Anyway, sounds like you're launched. I, as Queen of Excess Verbiage, should probbaly get back to yet another round of tightening the thing I'm working on. I've got it down to just under 91,000 words and am nearly at the end of the cuts. Then it's a matter of trying to put a few words' worth of colour and interest back into the darned thing. I have one idea (the character warming her frozen hands by sticking them under her horse's saddle pad before she takes his tack off) and then I'm going to have to think on it.
Heh. An unpublished writer's work is never done!
no subject
Date: 2006-01-17 06:38 am (UTC)The other thing that strikes me is that you need to be very clear what, exactly, the state of the supernatural is in your story. Is it 'real' (fantasy/paranormal)? Then you need to prove to the reader that 'this might sound wacky, but bear with me, she really is under a spell, suspend your disbelief.' In that case, you need to trickle in magic pretty quickly.
(That's what I assumed, but I'm a reader of fantasy)
Is it all in her head? Then you need to lightheartedly suggest that hah, hah, of *course* it isn't real. (This would be your chick lit.)
Or is her belief in being cursed a metaphor, and every 'trivial detail' is supposed to make the reader think about how it really relates to her life (= your literary novel).
It could be either of them, but it can't be *all* - and as you're going to piss off some readers anyway, at least avoid annoying the ones who would like to read the story you mean it to be but who get signalled the wrong things.